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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:55 am 
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Please enter any new hardiness information here.
Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:06 am 
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Location: Tampa, Florida, USA,............Florida's SunCoast <Zone 9B-10A> Location Details
Source List currently has Bambusa dolichomerithalla 'Silverstripe' rated at 25 F. Many years ago, when I first got my B. doli. SS, it was rated at 25 F. Then in the freeze in my backyard of 1996, with 24 F for an extended period, I has a small finger size new shoot of B. doli. SS take the 24 F and not be injured by the freeze. Then the temp rating was dropped to the old traditional "15 F" that was used for quite awhile. Now, for a number on years, it's been back to 25 F.

In speaking with my friend from Spring Hill, Florida, who had a lot of bamboos injured by the freeze of 20 F (he had 2 temp gages---one near the stables and the other in the back yard) the B. doli. SS sustained no damage. And after 2 weeks, no damaged noted. He's coming Saturday to get some more B. doil. SS and some B. tex. mutabilis. (The B. doli. SS in Spring Hill was not a mature clump. In ground about 1.5 years)

So B. doli. SS has to be at least cold hardy to 20 F. The 25 F is not right. So my recommendation is to use 20 F since that is the temp we've seen with no damage.

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Last edited by Roy on Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Bambusa tulda 'Striata'
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:30 am 
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Location: Tampa, Florida, USA,............Florida's SunCoast <Zone 9B-10A> Location Details
Bambusa tulda 'Striata' I never obtained because of the cold tolerate rating of 30 F. Well, now I have changed my mind and I think it's going to be next on my list of bamboos to get.

On my visit to Charlie Crowley's nursery, a few weeks ago, I saw just clumps and clumps of bamboos that looked like a blowtorch had been taken to them. But here stood a nice clump of Bambusa tulda 'Striata' and I didn't see any damage to it.

Kathy Crowley, Charlie's wife, said that the registered temps at Myakka, Florida was 20 F for about 4 hours. Looking on the map, Crowley's Nursery is about 8 to 10 miles west of there, but not close enough that the Gulf would have any effect on her place. She estimates it got down to around 23 F at the nursery.

These were the bamboos I saw, at Crowley's, that really looked torched:
Bambusa eutuldoides 'Viridivittata'
Bambusa lako
Bambusa vulgaris 'Wamin'
Dendrocalamus asper 'Betung Hitam'
Dendrocalamus brandisii
Dendrocalamus giganteus
Dendrocalamus latiflorus 'Mei-nung'
Gigantochloa atroviolacea
Guadua angustifolia

So if we go a little conservative, then Bambusa tulda 'Striata' should be rated at least at 25 F and not the 30 F.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:14 am 
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Location: We are less than one hour south of downtown Houston. We are located in Wild Peach, Texas located half way between Brazoria and West Columbia. Exit hwy 36 onto County Road 354. Take County Road 353 west . Go approximately 2.4 miles. We are on the left.
Bambusa eutuldoides 'Viridivittata'
I have seen this plant take 21 degrees with some leaf and culm tip damage on plants just sizing up. I do not recall the duration or wind speeds. I will go back over my old notes from that time period.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:19 pm 
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Bill, I think that bamboo temperature ratings really only apply to areas that will sometimes dip below +32F for a few hours at a time. In these cases I think that a temperature tolerance can be instructive because of the nature of the cold snaps there but in areas where you can count on temps dipping below say +10F each year I believe that temperature ratings are misleading or at best do not tell the whole story.

For example, in years past in the SSL we list Phy. bissetii as hardy to -15F and the dwarf form of bissetii to -16F – do we really mean to imply that 1 degree makes a difference? Will the dwarf form really be fine at -15F but at -16F the damage begins? I assure you that if the temp stays in the range of say -4F for 72 hours straight both will have leafburn.

O.K. editorial aside…if our temperature ratings are intended to list the point at which leaf burn BEGINS then I will offer a large list of suggested changes. Here are a few, more to come:

Phyllostachys that can hold to -3F
Stimulosa
Propinqua ‘Li Yu Gan’
Bissetii – both forms
Aureosulcata and forms Spectabilis, Harbin Inversa, Alata – I would list Aureocaulis at +2F and Harbin at +5F
Mannii Decora
Glauca Notso
Nuda Localis
Heteroclada Solidstem – I would put Straightstem at around 0F; Purpurata at +10F
Atrovaginata

Phy’s to 0F
Parvifolia
Flexuosa
Humilis
Nuda
Rubromarginata
Vivax Huangwenzhu

Other Phy’s
Viridis +3F
Robert Young +8F
Aurea forms +8F
Nigra forms +5F
Vivax, V. Aureocaulis, V. H Inv +5F
Henon forms +3F

Shibataea kumusaca & chinensis -5F

Sasa oshidensis -5F

Sarocalamus fangiana - +15F

Pleioblastus simonii - +12F

Hibanobambusa – green form to +3F; variegated to +7F

I tesselatus to +3F

Fastuosa forms +5F

Again, I am going for temps where leaf burn begins…. your mileage may vary.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:50 pm 
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What is the definition for Min. Temp. ? Leaf burn/loss, Culm damage/Top kill or plant death. I have allways assumed Culm damage/Top kill as the min. temp.
MarCat


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:01 pm 
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Location: We are less than one hour south of downtown Houston. We are located in Wild Peach, Texas located half way between Brazoria and West Columbia. Exit hwy 36 onto County Road 354. Take County Road 353 west . Go approximately 2.4 miles. We are on the left.
I have used the min temp as the typical point top kill occurs. I tell folks this is a moving target based on duration, temps leading up to the cold spell, age of the plant, wind speed, humidity, ground moisture, etc.

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cell (979)665-1897
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:04 pm 
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Location: Kerby, OR Location Details
It would be hard to estimate, because other factors can have so much inluence. the size of the plant, the amound of wind- if it hit -5, and was dead calm, would there be less damage to the plant than if it hit -5 and had 20mph winds? Also, if I plant a bamboo that has a 20f rating here, right next to my house, there will be less damage than if it was planted out in the middle of a field, right? So how does one go about estimating the changes needed? I know that a few folks here have the expirience to know if there was some factor that influenced the amount of damage to the plant, but thinking to the boo shooting diary over the last couple of years, where people post that thier bamboo in a pot, in the greenhouse is shooting, which throws off what I assumed the reason for the shoot diary is. Seems that there will be quite a bit of that with the temp ratings.

on the degree of difference one degree can make..... I got a bit frustrated this winter, I have several B. multiplex in the ground, temp rating: 18F. I had success covering one last winter and minimizing the damage, where the others were severely damaged, so I covered them all this winter, and as hoped for, very little damage. Another plant that I covered was a himalaycalamus hookerianus, temp rating: 20f. it losst all leaves, all branches, and the most of the culms. there might be a couple of lower nodes that leaf out. The coldest we had was 18F..... so if leaf damage occurs at X temp, using my pitifuly small experience, it progresses rather rapidly past that point. This plant was sheltered under some large oaks, and near one, so I was hoping the mass of the oak would create a microclimate effect... nope!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:52 pm 
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It is my understanding and I may be mistaken but I think that the usual standard definition for the temperature ratings is:

...temperature at which leaf burn initiates after a brief (few hours) exposure to that temperature...

If top kill numbers are now the goal then I would surely adjust the above comment I made.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:28 pm 
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marcat wrote:
What is the definition for Min. Temp. ? Leaf burn/loss, Culm damage/Top kill or plant death. I have allways assumed Culm damage/Top kill as the min. temp.
MarCat


From the ABS Species Source List

Minimum temperature: The minimum temperature is the point at which leaf damage begins to appear after a short exposure to the temperature. Culm and rhizome death generally occur at much lower temperatures. However, many variable conditions affect minimum temperature tolerance, including wind, humidity, soil moisture, snow cover, plant maturity, plant health, protection by structures, trees, and other plants, and duration and frequency of low temperatures. A plant may tolerate the minimum temperature for a night or two, but may not tolerate weeks at a temperature five degrees warmer. Drying winds and the absence of snow cover might kill an immature plant outright, whereas a sheltered more established plant might be entirely unscathed. The cold hardiness of a new introduction is only a best estimate, and revisions are made as more information becomes available. Minimum temperatures in the table are only relative approximations. The Source List editors and the ABS are not responsible for any damage or loss arising from the data provided.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:23 pm 
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That about covers it. I have found some variation between years of similar low temps that some bamboos will tolerate, especially the genus Bambusa. We have had 15 degree lows here for the past 3 years in a row, and some years are more punishing than others. Also note that the phyllostachys typically get some significant leaf damage at much higher temps than will kill the entire leaves (especially Phy. nigra). Opposed to Bambusas that seem to get leaf damaged and die back between a rather narrow temp range.

One point to note is that the temps are of ambient air. They do not include radiant sources of heat. Mainly that is from the ground or other objects such as dwellings, rock or water features. Ground temp makes a huge difference in survivability of bamboos. If the ground temp is significantly warmer than air temp, the air temp tolerace of bamboo is significantly higher than if the ground is at the same temp of the air. This is the reason that bamboos tend to survive short duration cold snaps, and not long ones, even at the same low temp readings. Which leads me to believe that you would have to take temp readings of the leaves themselves with a spot temp reading gun to pinpoint the exact temperature that a particular type of bamboo would suffer leaf damage. Otherwise the factors are just too variable.

Also a side note that when bamboos are in pots, the rhizomes are far more likely to be exposed to colder temps than if they are in the ground. Raising potted bamboos onto tables and shelves in cold periods (as well as hot ones) are apt to stress them at temps that would not bother them if they were in the ground. I have found the the trick with potted bamboos in winter is to mound them with mulch around the pots, so that they stay warmer. Another side note is what my brother calls 'winter leaf burn' on the likes of Phy. nigras. This does not seem to be from the extremes of exposure to cold temps, but rather from some other factor. Like sunlight on the coldest of days? Or just the number of cold days? My Henon and 'type' Phy. nigras get leaf tip burning every winter, regardless of the actual lowest temp. That is one easy way to ID nigras around here this time of year, actually.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Bill, were there any material changes to the temperature ratings in the 2009 SSL? At a glance they looked similar to 2008.

If not, what would be the appropriate way to have that conversation for the 2010 issue? It seems like by the time we give feedback here the pending issue is pretty much set, so I like Roy's idea about an interactive site that could be used well in advance. I'd be willing to donate some time to that project. Perhaps a group of us could do some data collection and come up with a recommendation for the SSL team to consider?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:57 pm 
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There were only a few changes last year.
This would be a good place to post suggested changes for the 2010 Species list. The deadline for suggestions for species list changes is in October so the changes can be made before it is posted for source signup. Last year we did have some changes that were made to the database here that made it into the species list.

Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:26 pm 
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bambooweb wrote:
...
From the ABS Species Source List
Minimum temperature: The minimum temperature is the point at which leaf damage begins to appear after a short exposure to the temperature. Culm and rhizome death generally occur at much lower temperatures....


I have to say that for me this usage/definition of a "Minimum Temperature" not very useful.

Firstly, most of my bamboos are in exposed locations and accumulate some leaf damage during winter from wind. These same bamboos, especially some of the Phyllostachys, are often in similar shape by the end of summer, sometimes worse. For most of my bamboo, I would not be able to tell where leaf damage began to appear from temperature as opposed to wind.

Secondly, I do not care where leaf damage begins to appear, since I am going to get some damage anyway. What is important to me is that the majority of the plant's leaf area stays green over winter; and that when the old leaves are shed, new leaves appear to take their place.

I presume that the ABS definition of minimum temperature is what is important to most of the members, but I also believe that there are many that are interested in whether the bamboo they buy is going to grow and look like new after the old leaves are shed in the spring.

So my suggestion is that we add an asterisk indicating that the current ABS "Minimum Temperature" is the temperature at which some or a small amount of leaf damage will begin to occur and in our discussions of minimum temperature indicate if we are using some other criteria such as tip damage or culm death.

Mike McG near Brenham TX


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:51 pm 
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Or switch entirely to 'top death' temperatures.

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