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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 137
Location: Sydenham, Ontario, Canada
David-

As simple as I can make it: Tissue cultured plants are babied (grown without any competition from fungus or bacteria or other plants) and subected to abnormal levels of different hormones (not to mention nutrition) for a long time. This can cause both genetic and/or epigenetic (changes in appearance, or other traits, such as hardiness, that are heritable, but NOT caused by the underlying DNA sequence) changes in the plants. Read my above post for some of the common problems associated with bringing plants out of culture (the long adaptation period... You might call it 'normalization').

IMO most of the damage to a TC plant compared with a 'normal' plant would be due to lack of establishment in the TC plant.

Hope this helps!


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:59 am
Posts: 155
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA Location Details
I did open pandora's box again, sorry!! It sounds like many of you have had a bad experience either with hardiness issues or with juvenile plants that remained juvenile, and or very poor growth performance in your climate. To top that off retail prices have generally not gone down as a result of mass production of bamboo (aside from Home Depot and the like who sell the stuff.) Definitely some dissappointing issues surrounding tissue culture propagation that can cause a lot of uncertainty.

We've had very good results with the process here in Oregon and I'd encourage you to visit Bamboo Garden in North Plains, and my little organic nursery in Portland to see for yourself what is possible with TC.

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Cedar Mill Bamboo
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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:29 am 
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Location: Houston, TX Location Details
I had a HUGE post written, but my laptop died... it all comes down to this: due to my experiences with TC bamboo I will never willingly (knowingly) purchase another. I do believe they should be labeled as such, even if the general public will never know the difference. Apparently others have had better experiences with them than what I have seen. Buyer beware.


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:14 pm
Posts: 4569
Location: Esparto, CA
Bamboo Society Membership: ABS - America
Thus far my limited knowledge of the TC bamboos points to some species such as F 'rufa' that do very well and other genus - Bambusa, Phyllostachys - where I've yet to learn of a micro-prop plant emerging from a juvenile state. I would love to learn of some that have but thus far no one has provided examples. F scabrida for me has consistently shown about 20F less hardiness than it is 'listed' for, I do not know if mine is a TC plant, but others seem to have had trouble with their TC forms.

In a zone 6 climate(or colder), starter plant size and rapid development are critical to getting the grove established. Small plants are more likely to come back weakly from a harsh cold spell than larger, well rooted/rhizomed plants. Personally I will rarely place any Phyllostachys in inventory until it is rootbound in a 14 inch pot and these usually have canes in the 6-8 foot range at this point. This size offers some spring recovery potential in the event that a harsh winter occurs.

I gave up on several Moso seedlings I was growing for this reason, they were cold tender and came back weakly in the spring after winter damage. If TC Phyllostachys also exhibit this as I've heard, then I am doubtful if they will form a decent grove in cold winter areas, despite the hardiness reputation of the parent plant. So until some data supporting strong performance of this genus' TC plants can be produced, I feel a responsibility to steer folks away from them or at least give the info and let them decide for themselves. TC F 'rufa' I have no problem steering folks too but thus far that is the only species for my climate that a TC plant seems 'proven'. In a milder climate the issue is likely less of a factor.

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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Location: Portland, Oregon, USA Location Details
I'm not sure if it's just climate related since some folks in England (similar to Oregon's climate) have had the same issues. My current batch of Fargesia robusta Green Screen were TC'd in 2008. They were tiny (4" to 6" tall) out of the lab. Bamboo Garden grew them for me until spring, 2010. When I start selling them in 2011 they'll be 5 to 7 feet tall in #5 containers. A good friend of mine who bought 5 plants out of my 2007 #5 container batch now has a beautiful thick hedge that averages about 10 feet tall. Pretty phenomenal growth when young to about 6 feet and then 2 feet a year after that.

My own specimen plant from the original Briggs Nursery tissue culture in 2005 seems to be topping out at about 10 feet tall. It's a wider clump than the Campbell cultivar, very full and thick growing in dry shaded conditions under some big trees. The label from Bamboo Select says "15 to 18 feet tall". Bottom line is that there are so many variables to growth it's hard to pinpoint how any bamboo will perform once it leaves the nursery. Based on my own experience I tell customers probably 12 feet is about max, and our climate is pretty ideal for Fargesia.

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AJ Williams
Cedar Mill Bamboo
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100% Organic Garden and Nursery in Portland, Oregon


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Location: Esparto, CA
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I think that climate is a factor when considering winter damage and the recovery vigor or lack thereof that follows, those conditions call for the most vigorous plants one can obtain so IF micro prop bamboo tend to be less vigorous then they should perhaps be avoided in terms of marginal species for a given climate.

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Brad Salmon, zone 9 Esparto, CA
www.needmorebamboo.com


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:49 pm 
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Location: Portland, Oregon, USA Location Details
needmore wrote:
I think that climate is a factor when considering winter damage and the recovery vigor or lack thereof that follows, those conditions call for the most vigorous plants one can obtain so IF micro prop bamboo tend to be less vigorous then they should perhaps be avoided in terms of marginal species for a given climate.


I'd have to agree with you if you could only get small plants where you live. A big tall root bound well seasoned TC plant in a #10 container or larger would be the way to go in a marginal climate. Big investment just to try a TC and probably not worth it if division is available. Those little 6" tall lab plants live in the greenhouse here for two or three years before they even get exposed to our "mild" climate.

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AJ Williams
Cedar Mill Bamboo
http://www.cedarmillbamboo.com

100% Organic Garden and Nursery in Portland, Oregon


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:13 pm
Posts: 2822
Location: St. Louis area Location Details
Oregonbamboo wrote:
...A big tall root bound well seasoned TC plant in a #10 container or larger would be the way to go in a marginal climate.
Yet the 3 gal and 1 gal (5 gal maybe?) TC plants are the only ones being shipped to nurseries in these tougher climates. :(

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My blog: It's not work, it's gardening!


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