Putting layer of manure on grove

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ShmuBamboo
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by ShmuBamboo »

CJW wrote:
Ha, try getting 34,0,0 now days !! It's like pulling teeth!
Worse is getting Urea Nitrate, most times you can't, even with a license.
You can still get 34,0,0 11S which is what I use. It works fine. It's got Ammonium Sulphate in it.
BTW, 46,0,0 is Urea Carbonate and that is easy to get! It does work well, but it can burn plants easily.
UN is that hard to get now? I was not aware of that. Must be good for making things blow up. I am always amused with the destructive potential of fertilizer. It gives a new meaning to the term, blown to s##t!.

Geez, looking online GOOGLEing urea nitrate, its listed as a plastic explosive! Add a little diesel, and up in smoke it goes.
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by Alan_L »

Holy cow, somebody copy and paste this info into the wiki! Great info!

I didn't realize that those high-N fertilizers were only-N fertilizers. Don't the boos need the other nutrients too, or is Nitrogen the most important one?
some football players reported problems playing on terf fed with Milorganite
What kind of problems?
Human urine ... should be diluted at least 10:1 with water before using though.
Is the 12-1-3 rating before or after dilution? Why does it need to be diluted so much?

Great information -- I do appreciate the detailed posts!
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by CJW »

ShmuBamboo wrote:
CJW wrote:
Ha, try getting 34,0,0 now days !! It's like pulling teeth!
Worse is getting Urea Nitrate, most times you can't, even with a license.
You can still get 34,0,0 11S which is what I use. It works fine. It's got Ammonium Sulphate in it.
BTW, 46,0,0 is Urea Carbonate and that is easy to get! It does work well, but it can burn plants easily.
UN is that hard to get now? I was not aware of that. Must be good for making things blow up. I am always amused with the destructive potential of fertilizer. It gives a new meaning to the term, blown to s##t!.

Geez, looking online GOOGLEing urea nitrate, its listed as a plastic explosive! Add a little diesel, and up in smoke it goes.
NO.. plastic explosive it isn't, it a) doesn't contain RDX or HMX or PETN or TNT or any sort of polymer, and UN has a DVol 1/2 of C4.
It is listed as a material under watch by FBI just the same as Ammonium Nitrate is... btw so is Hydrogen Peroxide. H2O2 @ more than 10%Vol concentrations.
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by dudley »

liquid dish soap slows soil compaction and aids in water penetration.
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by Alan_L »

CJW wrote:... it a) doesn't contain RDX or HMX or PETN or TNT or any sort of polymer, and UN has a DVol 1/2 of C4...
And I thought figuring out bamboo species names was tough! :wink:
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by CJW »

Alan_L wrote:
CJW wrote:... it a) doesn't contain RDX or HMX or PETN or TNT or any sort of polymer, and UN has a DVol 1/2 of C4...
And I thought figuring out bamboo species names was tough! :wink:

RDX,PETN and TNT are all powerful high order explosives.

RDX - Cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine Dvol ~8800m/s - Military High Explosive
PETN- Pentaerythritol Tetranitrate 8400m/s - Military and civilian HE (used to cut trees and metal) used in tree falling applications and construction (Det-chord)
HMX - RDX relative (10600m/s) Military HE - Currently has the most energy output of any conventional explosive

TNT- Trinitrotoluene (7200m/s) civilian HE (used to shatter rock when tunneling)

Dvol = Detonation of Velocity (speed of detonation)

Urea Nitrate is Dvol 4000-5000m/sec which is similar to that of Ammonium Nitrate.

:twisted:
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by stevelau1911 »

Some recommend that sugars (plain old table sugar, or sucrose) should be applied in very small amounts, or in higher doses in the fall to 'feed' the fungal mass.
Sounds like it makes sense since mycorrhizal fungi feeds off of it, but I'm hoping to see results with the fungi alone before I do anything further. I got a bag for only $8 of plant supplement with mycorrhizal fungi in it, and I'm hoping I see a difference in another week. This stuff is advertised to increase the root mass 10 to 100 times, but I'll be happy with 2-3X on my test moso plants. If it makes them root-bound in another 3 months, Ill have to up-pot a lot of bamboos.
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by ShmuBamboo »

Alan_L wrote:Holy cow, somebody copy and paste this info into the wiki! Great info!

I didn't realize that those high-N fertilizers were only-N fertilizers. Don't the boos need the other nutrients too, or is Nitrogen the most important one?
With grasses, nitrogen is the most important fertilizer. Grasses are heavy feeders. The other stuff is also important, but less so. Timing is the issue with grasses, and they need a heavy dose of nitrogen applied typically once or twice a year. Same with corn, though they say not to use urea when sowing corn, or it will have some bad side effects.
Alan_L wrote:regarding Milorganite
What kind of problems?
Well, when I was living in the SF Bay Area, there was a claim by the SF 49'er football team that there was a link between Milorganite and ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease). Milorganite was used previously on their playing field. When they launched an investigation, they found some employees of the manufacturer of Milorganite had also died of ALS. The problem may be more to do with heavy metals and other compounds in the sludge than with the fact that it has human waste material, but it remains an open issue I believe.
Alan_L wrote:Human urine ... should be diluted at least 10:1 with water before using though.
Is the 12-1-3 rating before or after dilution? Why does it need to be diluted so much?
Yah, that is the strength before it is diluted. Straight urine will burn plant roots. Similar to straight blood meal potentially causing the same type of problems. Gott'a go, back later to clean up this post....
Last edited by ShmuBamboo on Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by Matt in TN »

ShmuBamboo wrote:Amusing. Urea is a lot higher in N than ammomium-nitrate (AN), more than 15% to cover for any losses. I assune that they are talking about ammonia volitility, or that being wafted off into the air. Urea turns into ammonia pretty fast by enzyme activity. It is temperature dependant though, and also dependant on soil pH. In cooler soils and lower pH soils, the ammonia will be more stable and less volitile. I assume that your soils are higher in pH, so they are recommending AN. For this reason it is recommended to get the urea into the soil as fast as possible (till or mix with water application) if the pH is higher than 7.5. I mix and apply my urea with water, so that is not an issue. In pasture fertilizer applications, the fertilizer is typically broadcast in chrystal form, and lays on the surface longer before it is drawn into the soil. That is probably why they are recommending AN over urea in your case. AN is also highly soluble in water and subject to rapid leaching though. Note also that Ammonium Nitrate is used in making bombs, like the one used in Oklahoma City. For that reason it can be very hard to get.

We used urea on our pastures, and one year we used ammonium-nitrate becasue it was so cheap. I did not notice any difference. Urea is so cheap that I do not care about losses on my bamboos, and I feed on the heavy side. In pasture management that is a bigger issue though, as you want the biggest bang for the smallest dollar. Uera has the highest amount of nitrogen compared to other fertilizers though.
OK - I'm back home and can look at the actual report now. You've already been more than kind in the time you've taken to respond. It's always hard to know on the internet who is giving you advice and if they know what they are talking about - if you don't know what you are talking about you sure do fake it well! :D

According to the field test my ph is 7.6. They recommended 60 lbs of nitrogen per acre applied in March and September (an additional 45 lbs/acre if looking for a 2nd cutting). The following sentence is what had me a little confused:

"If urea is the nitrogen source, especially for fall topdressings, some loss of nitrogen may occur if applied to moist soils followed by three or more days of rapidly drying conditions without rainfall."

I had planned to try to get Ammonium Nitrate based on that, and take urea if there was a big cost or effort difference. Now you've peaked my curiosity and I'm wanting to pick your brain to better understand the difference. Evidently the 15% I pulled from some dark orifice or something....

As long as I'm sidetracking this thread - when they say "60 lbs Nitrogen per acre" how do you measure? For example - 60 lbs of 10-10-10 would have a much different total volume of nitrogen than 60lbs 34-0-0, wouldn't it?
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ShmuBamboo
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by ShmuBamboo »

When they are talking about nitrogen here, they are talking about total nitrogen, and you have to factor by the total percent in the formula that you are applying to get total pounds. For example, 34% x AN weight = total nitrogen weight of AN. 100 pounds of AN is 34 pounds of nitrogen. 100 pounds of urea is 46 pounds of N, and 100 pounds of AS is 21 pounds of N. See? Typically fertilizers are rated for use in pounds per acre. So are pesticides and herbicides. It can be a pain to figure out smaller amounts on smaller plots. We had to figure out what rate to apply and how many spreader cans to fill on our spreader that we had mounted on the back of our Polaris ATV that we used to fertilize the pastures with. We had about 25 acres in pasture there. Its a guessing game at best. What they are recommending and when makes sence; apply high nitrogen fertilizers during the shoulder months when you are going to get your highest rate of growth in grasses. That was the way it was on our pastures that we had our sheep on in central west Oregon. Here grasses grow in the spring, and they die off when the rains end in summer, and they resume growth again in the fall when the rains return. 2nd growth cutting was the hay that we always wanted; it was the best and the sheep prefered eating it. What they are talking about regarding application of urea in dry conditions is what I was saying before; warm dry conditions after application will favor the ammonia vaporizing into the air from the soil, and being 'lost'. Some online sources claim that up to 50% of the nitrogen in urea can be lost to volitization if conditions are not right. Seemingly urea is being used a lot more now that AN is being phased out for 'national secutity' reasons. Ammonium sulphate is being used more, but even if half the nitorgen is lost in urea, it would be about the same as using ammonium sulphate. There are some new types of urea with volitization inhibitors coming on the market now as well.

As for the difference between Urea, AS, UN, UAN, or several other high N fertilizers out there, as my earlier post pointed out, they all start out with or turn into ammonia at some point, and they all break down in the nitrification process to nitrites and then into nitrates in the end. The urea is more volitile than the others when used on soils and then the weather turns dry, and/or when used on soils with a pH higher than 7.5, which your soil is. The higher pH volitizes the urea into an aresol form of ammonia which is lost to the air. However, urea is a lot more potent than any other form of high N fertilizer, and thus it is not really an issue from my experience. We usually used urea and we had high pH soils. I used about the same amount of AN as Urea for the same area, and more AS than either of those. The prices and availability varied from year to year (usually going up in price), and we bought it by the 100 pound lot at the local farm co-op. You have to factor for the total nitrogen, and compare the cost and potential losses of N using urea to volitility when calculating what is the cheapest/best source of nitrogen. Welcome to the head scratching part of pasture management. ;)

As to how this applies to bamboo? Well, a lot of big boo growers apply urea here in the late winter just the same as you would apply it to pastures. I am not sure about the rate though. Bamboos are grasses... giant Moso pastures? As for being an expert, I do not really know jack about anything. I am really a convict in jail in San Quentin, logged onto the computers at the library for good behavior. That guy that went to the PNW bamboo conference this weekend in Springfield, OR was an imposter that looks just like me ;) I get my info about bamboo from my cellmate, who talks about it in his sleep all the time. The other stuff I just make up after hitting the bottle of Jack Daniels, er, that is what we call "Koolaide" here in the big house. I trade all my cigarettes for it. :drunken:

Note: I updated the above to add figuring out total N examples of AS, AN and urea.
Last edited by ShmuBamboo on Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by CJW »

ShmuBamboo wrote:When they are talking about nitrogen here, they are talking about total nitrogen, and you have to factor by the total percent in the formula that you are applying to get total pounds. For example, 34% x AN weight = total nitrogen weight of AN. Typically fertilizers are rated for use in pounds per acre. So are pesticides and herbicides. It can be a pain to figure out smaller amounts on smaller plots. We had to figure out what rate to apply and how many spreader cans to fill on our spreader that we had mounted on the back of our Polaris ATV that we used to fertilize the pastures with. We had about 25 acres in pasture there. Its a guessing game at best. What they are recommending and when makes sence; apply high nitrogen fertilizers during the shoulder months when you are going to get your highest rate of growth in grasses. That was the way it was on our pastures that we had our sheep on in central west Oregon. Here grasses grow in the spring, and they die off when the rains end in summer, and they resume growth again in the fall when the rains return. 2nd growth cutting was the hay that we always wanted; it was the best and the sheep prefered eating it. What they are talking about regarding application of urea in dry conditions is what I was saying before; warm dry conditions after application will favor the ammonia vaporizing into the air from the soil, and being 'lost'. Some online sources claim that up to 50% of the nitrogen in urea can be lost to volitization if conditions are not right. Seemingly urea is being used a lot more now that AN is being phased out for 'national secutity' reasons. Ammonium sulphate is being used more, but even if half the nitorgen is lost in urea, it would be about gthe same as using ammonium sulphate.

As for the difference between Urea, AS, UN, UAN, or several other high N fertilizers out there, as my earlier post pointed out, they all start out with or turn into ammonia at some point, and they all break down in the nitrification process to nitrites and then into nitrates in the end. The urea is more volitile than the others when used on soils and then the weather turns dry, and/or when used on soils with a pH higher than 7.5, which your soil is. The higher pH volitizes the urea into an aresol form of ammonia which is lost to the air. However, urea is a lot more potent than any other form of high N fertilizer, and thus it is not really an issue from my experience. We usually used urea and we had high pH soils. I used about the same amount of AN as Urea for the same area, and more AS than either of those. They prices and availability varied, and we bought it by the 100 pound lot at the local farm co-op.

As to how this applies to bamboo? Well, a lot of big boo growers apply urea here in the late winter just the same as you would apply it to pastures. I am not sure about the rate though. Bamboos are grasses... giant Moso pastures? As for being an expert, I do not really know jack about anything. I am really a convict in jail in San Quentin, logged onto the computers at the library for good behavior. That guy that went to the PNW bamboo conference this weekend in Springfield, OR was an imposter that looks just like me ;) I get my info about bamboo from my cellmate, who talks about it in his sleep all the time. The other stuff I just make up after hitting the bottle of Jack Daniels, er, that is what we call "Koolaide" here in the big house. I trade all my cigarettes for it. :drunken:

And you'd be right on the sublimation of NH3 and NOx by Urea and AN... take a good look at our Fraser valley smog... it's due to a large part by NOx and Ammonia by farms.
When Ammonium Nitrate and Urea come in contact with water they start to decompose. AN does so quickly.
You'll notice Ammonium nitrate getting very cold all of a sudden when it is mixed with water... This is the decomposition reaction. ---> it's a very strongly endothermic process.
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by ShmuBamboo »

Well, its not just from applied fertilizers (the farm smog) it from the animal muck decomposing and the urine runoff as well. North Carolina has a huge issue with way too much N in the rivers there from all the pig farms. The former owner of my ex's sheep ranch had to dig settling ponds to keep the barn runoff (they used the barn as a goat dairy) from going into the creek there. I liked to distribute the muck from the barn to the other parts of the ranch that were N deficient. Like the bamboo groves.
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by Matt in TN »

ShmuBamboo wrote:As for being an expert, I do not really know jack about anything. I am really a convict in jail in San Quentin, logged onto the computers at the library for good behavior. That guy that went to the PNW bamboo conference this weekend in Springfield, OR was an imposter that looks just like me ;) I get my info about bamboo from my cellmate, who talks about it in his sleep all the time. The other stuff I just make up after hitting the bottle of Jack Daniels, er, that is what we call "Koolaide" here in the big house. I trade all my cigarettes for it. :drunken:
LOL - at least you're not a 12 year old girl, regurgitating what she read in a google search! Thanks again for all the great information -
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by CJW »

ShmuBamboo wrote:
Alan_L wrote:Holy cow, somebody copy and paste this info into the wiki! Great info!

I didn't realize that those high-N fertilizers were only-N fertilizers. Don't the boos need the other nutrients too, or is Nitrogen the most important one?
With grasses, nitrogen is the most important fertilizer. Grasses are heavy feeders. The other stuff is also important, but less so. Timing is the issue with grasses, and they need a heavy dose of nitrogen applied typically once or twice a year. Same with corn, though they say not to use urea when sowing corn, or it will have some bad side effects.
Alan_L wrote:regarding Milorganite
What kind of problems?
Well, when I was living in the SF Bay Area, there was a claim by the SF 49'er football team that there was a link between Milorganite and ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease). Milorganite was used previously on their playing field. When they launched an investigation, they found some employees of the manufacturer of Milorganite had also died of ALS. The problem may be more to do with heavy metals and other compounds in the sludge than with the fact that it has human waste material, but it remains an open issue I believe.
Alan_L wrote:Human urine ... should be diluted at least 10:1 with water before using though.
Is the 12-1-3 rating before or after dilution? Why does it need to be diluted so much?
Yah, that is the strength before it is diluted. Straight urine will burn plant roots. Similar to straight blood meal potentially causing the same type of problems. Gott'a go, back later to clean up this post....

I have also wondered if Heavy metals could be associated with ALS. I wonder if Hexavalent Chromium has been found in Milorganite? Cr6 ion is very very toxic to DNA and is often linked with severe mutagenic effects, of course Cancer, but also reproductive damage. ALS wouldn't surprise me in the least.
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Re: Putting layer of manure on grove

Post by foxd »

I've cut and pasted a small section of the discussion here into the wiki. Any suggestions about what else needs to go under Fertilizing?
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