Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Comments and Sugestions for the ABS Source list.
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by needmore »

So, Chris/Bill/Ted/Ned - what do you think about adjusting the temps up for the 2011 issue? I can help as needed, I think we can easily make the listing much more conservative and this should insulate the ABS more if that is a concern.
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by bambooweb »

Brad,
Sorry for taking so long to get back. Both Chris and I have been working long hours at our real jobs so it has been hard to get back to ABS duties. I will email you on what we have come up with so we can get the changes started with the 2011 issue.

Bill
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by foxd »

I have P.m. 'Decora' planted right next to P. atrovaginata such that they must get very close to identical conditions and the 'Decora' looks much better than the atrovaginata. I would say the 'Decora' is definitely more hardy than atrovaginata.
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by needmore »

foxd wrote:I have P.m. 'Decora' planted right next to P. atrovaginata such that they must get very close to identical conditions and the 'Decora' looks much better than the atrovaginata. I would say the 'Decora' is definitely more hardy than atrovaginata.
I have them side by side and they look about the same, the Decora may be more burnt. Both groves are several years old.

I realized last weekend that some of the groves I saw showing drought stress last summer - usually at the tips of the culms - are now burned only at the point where the leaves were curling then. Plus the ice storm froze some tips to the ground and those leaves are burned but I can clearly see a relationship to drought stress and cold damage this year.
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by needmore »

Bill, I noticed in the most recent ABS mag that there was an article about the 2012 SSL, it suggested that input be given by a deadline prior to the publication of the mag :shock: :shock: :shock:

In any case, if there is opportunity & interest I would offer several more temperature adjustments.
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by bambooweb »

Brad,
There is the official deadline for suggestions for the next printed issue but we can make changes for the on-line version at any time and if the changes are made before printing they will be included. :thumbleft:

Bill
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by needmore »

Bill, here is my 2012 list - have at it list members with your own experienced variances. Some of the changes I suggest are minor but some are quite significant. As with last year I m commenting only on species I've had long enough to have settled in and shown fairly consistent results. And as always I stress that my temps are where leaf burn begins to initiate...culm damage much lower. On a couple of the more obscure species I may have a mis-ID'd plant but those came from the only known source so I'll assume they are correct ID's.

Bashania quingchengshanensis - +3F

Phy atrovaginata - 0F
Phy Aureosulcata - -2F
Phy aureosulcata ‘Alata’ - -0F
Phy Aureosulcata ‘Aureocaulis’ - +3F
Phy Aureosulcata ‘Harbin Inversa’ – 2F
Phy Aureosulcata ‘Harbin’ - +3F
Phy aureosulcata ‘Spectabilis’ - -2F
Phy Bissetii - -2F
Phy Dulcis - +3F
Phy Dwarf Bissetii - -2F
Phy Edulis - Anderson form as well - +8F
Phy elegans - +5F
Phy Heteroclada ‘Purpurata’ - +8F
Phy Heteroclada ‘Solidstem’ - -2F
Phy Heteroclada ‘Straightstem’ – 0F
Phy Mannii ‘Decora’ - 0F
Phy Nidularia - +8F
Phy nigra ‘Bory’’- +5F
Phy nigra ‘Hale’ - +5F
Phy Nigra ‘Henon’ - +3F
Phy Nigra ‘Shimadake’ - +5F
Phy Nuda – 0F
Phy Nuda localis – 0F
Phy Parvifolia - +3F
Phy Platyglossa - +5F
Phy Propinqua ‘Beijing’ – -2F
Phy Rubromarginata – -2F
Phy Violescens - +8F
Phy Viridiglaucescens - +8F
Phy viridis - +5F
Phy vivax – all forms - +8F

Pl. amarus - +10F
Pl. distichus & ‘mini’- +0F
Pl. gauntletii - +5F
Pl. hindsii - +10F
Pl. juxianensis - +3F
Pl.kongosanensis - +15F
Pl. nagashima - +5F
Pl. oleosus - +3F
Pl. simonii - +10F

Ps. japonica all forms- +7F
Ps longiligula - +10F

Sarocalamus fangiana - +15F

Sasa megalophylla - +8F
Sasa nagimontana - +3F
Sasa palmata - +8F
Sasa senanensis - -2F
Sasa veitchii - +8F

Sasamorpha borealis – +3F
Semiarundinaria fastuosa - +8F
Semiarundinaria fastuosa ‘Viridis’ - +3F
Semiarundinaria yashadake ‘Kimmei’ - +8F
Shibataea chinensis - -2F
Shibataea kumusaca - -2F
Shibataea lancifolia - +8F
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by stevelau1911 »

My plants are still small, but here are the observations I have on when leaf burn seems to start occuring when they have exposed leaves to the winter cold. They are probably still a couple years away from showing consistent results. Some bamboos seem to be efficient in handling leaf burn, and manage to hold green leaves better than others even below these temperatures so I believe temperatures for top kill may be similar to what the current listings are.

Bambusa ventricosa 30F
Bambusa ventricosa 'Kimmei' 24F
Bambusa vulgaris 'Wamin'32F
Fargesia denudata At least 0F
Fargesia denudata TC 25F
Fargesia dracocephala 'Rufa' 0F
Fargesia nitida -9F
Phyllostachys atrovaginata 0F
Phyllostachys aureosulcata 2F I've seen mature groves much hardier locally
Phyllostachys bissetii 2F
Phyllostachys dulcis 2F
Phyllostachys edulis 1st year seedlings 22F
Phyllostachys edulis 2nd year seedlings 18F
Phyllostachys edulis older seedling 10F
Phyllostachys heteroclada 3rd year seedlings 5F
Phyllostachys kwangsiensis 1st year seedling 26F
Phyllostachys mannii 'Decora' 5F
Phyllostachys nigra 'Henon' 5F
Phyllostachys nuda 14F
Phyllostachys parvifolia 0F
Phyllostachys propinqua 'Beijing' -3F
Phyllostachys rubromarginata 2F
Phyllostachys vivax 10F
Phyllostachys vivax 'Aureocaulis' 12F
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by ghmerrill »

Brad's observations are right on in respect to the species we have in common. We very rarely get down to the single digits, so I can't say from a year to year basis.

One species that I have that seems to be over stated is Pleioblastus linearis 'Nana'. I have seen amost complete top kill at 10F. I would rate the leaf damage temp at more like 15F.
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by Alan_L »

I know several years of experience, careful observation, and good note-taking can help, but I don't see how you guys can do this. That's not an insult at all, I just feel like there are too many variables to get this level of precision with ratings -- the main one being wind.

The thing that I do take away from these ratings though are relative hardiness -- I can see which species seem to be hardier than others. So I appreciate your efforts for sure!
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by bamboothew »

I surely appreciate the efforts as well: they help give me reasonable expectations for my garden. From the hardiness ratings usually given I would never expect a bit of leaf burn on any phyllo I have but from your list I know more what to expect from the less hardy ones, a bit of leaf burn every couple of years or so. This helps with garden design siine I wouldn't want the most prominent locations for bamboos that will burn in the odd single-digit event we have here. Probably wouldn't want a planting of 'Castillon' or 'Allgold' as my centerpiece (info from an earlier list you had posted) :)
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by needmore »

Well, if you read my old posts on the subject you'll find that I agree with the difficulty in using a specific temperature as an indicator of hardiness, thus my own system on my website.

My observations come from...observations, right after a given air temp. I've always been intrigued that at +5F many species seem fine, at 0F many are totally burned, at 2F to 3F you see a dividing line. Now how one factors in wind chills on those observations is tricky plus duration of cold snap, suddenness of onset etc. I've seen winters where we stayed right at 0F as a low so that gave a decent observation; some at -2F, one at +3F, and several that went well beyond -5F so I've had some decent rating opportunities but wind chill...blah...
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by johnw »

needmore wrote:Well, if you read my old posts on the subject you'll find that I agree with the difficulty in using a specific temperature as an indicator of hardiness, thus my own system on my website.

My observations come from...observations, right after a given air temp. I've always been intrigued that at +5F many species seem fine, at 0F many are totally burned, at 2F to 3F you see a dividing line. Now how one factors in wind chills on those observations is tricky plus duration of cold snap, suddenness of onset etc. I've seen winters where we stayed right at 0F as a low so that gave a decent observation; some at -2F, one at +3F, and several that went well beyond -5F so I've had some decent rating opportunities but wind chill...blah...
I think Brad has set the standard for hardiness ratings. I'd agree with that 2-3F / -16c threshold for Phyllos. As to wind chill - we get a lot of wind here - the deciding factor here is the humidity level during a blow and if the ground is frozen or not. I'd say the ratings you see in print for Fargesias are totally out of whack - nitida and murieliae are going to be deciduous at -10f and tip kill below -15f; -29f (-34c!!!) and -25f ratings are preposterous for these the two hardiest Fargesias.

In the milder southern part of NS it is much much windier than here in the city. So far Sasa palmata and Indocalamus latifolius 'Hopei' have not had so much as a blemish after +5F.
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by moriphen »

Pleioblastus chino 'Murakamiensis' hardy to 5º F over 4 winters of varying strength, listed as 10º F in ABS listing.

2014: 2 nights at 4º F Strongest winter in 20 years.

Image

2013: 3 nights near 13.5º F

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2012: 2 nights near 14º F

Image

2011: 1 night at 9º F

Image
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All photo's taken between Feb and the 1st week of April of each new year.
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Re: Species List hardiness change suggestions.

Post by needmore »

May need to start a newer thread for the 2017 version, but here I saw a potted Otataea glauca sustain what I think will be 100% top kill after a few hours below freezing with a low of 29.8F. Should be listed as not frost tolerant. Same night a Chusquea foliosa sustained hefty leaf burn, potted but in a protected area.
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