First time watering in-ground bamboo for 2010

[ShmuBamboo]

That's really interesting! I thought that aborted shoots were completely normal -- something inherent in the way that bamboo grows. Maybe there are environmental factors at work here too.

I spent a lot of the last two years photographing some of the largest boo plantations here in the west. Thousands of photos. I spent last spring specifically on shooting photos of the shooting season. I have to say that spring abort is just not very common in the west. At least at the nurseries and plantations I was at. From the research I have read, boos will shoot until they are out of starch reserves. Then they stop. Here they seem to gauge what reserves they have in the early spring and push up the shoots that they have the reserves for. I would imagine if they run out of starch early in the shooting process, they would abort. Or there is some climate factor, like when the nighttime temps are ~not~ 10-15 degrees F. below daytime temps, and they respire at night using up reserves, and then the shoots would abort. That is my supposition based on plant temperature research that I have read. I do not observe this happening myself growing boos here, so I cannot really say.

[va_highlander]

Perhaps soil conditions and wind play a big role in the 'to water shoots or not to water shoots'.

Upon reflection, I came to a similar conclusion and am unconcerned that I might have harmed my 'boo.

Until the past couple of weeks, we have had a fairly dry spring, seems like. I had shoots on the P nigra poke through mid-April, but they didn't do too terribly much until we had a good, soking rain. At that point, several shoots began elongating in earnest and the number of shoots breaking ground more than doubled. So, I thought water might be key and I've kept the grove - not soggy but - reasonably damp since.

Also, seems like our periods of rain have been alternating with days of warm, dry wind, so again watering seemed a reasonable response.

As for soil conditions, I think those may indeed be significant. This particular site is at the top of a gentle slope and, for all intents and purposes, the soil is a mix of leaf mould and many decades of well-leached coal ash and cinder, on top of shale. I couldn't saturate this site if I tried, I suspect.

From a theoretical standpoint, it seems to me that for a heavily-shooting grove, there should be significant water requirements, since the bamboo is doing its thing via hydraulics, yes?

[va_highlander]

Not misunderstood.

Okay, thanks, and thanks for the response.

We have consistent rains here in the spring (every year) and I have yet to lose a single shoot to dampening off or rot, either in the ground or in pots. Not a one.

Very interesting. I thought the P nigras were famous for aborting shoots.

[needmore]

You are worried about atro being over-watered? Wow. I have seen that stuff growing next to ponds here and they love the wet! Seriously. At McKenzie Valley Bamboo, John flooded several areas there to make ponds. Around the ponds he planted several boo species that like water, and atro is one of them. Here is a photo of that stand. That's standing water behind the atro, and that is a flat area. He has heteroclada next to that, and farcta in there as well. All happy bamboos. Most of the other boos there are up on mounds. Not atro though.

That must be a very young planting of Atrovaginata, it looks small and congested, especially for zone 8, though the new canes look to be sizing up some.

[David]

Wow! OK! Lots of subjects all rolled into one.

My two cents:

1. Watering: "Bamboo loves water but hates wet feet."

A. Established in ground bamboo generally do not need to be watered.

a. Regional water requirements for bamboo vary greatly, and also vary within the region.

b. "Established" bamboo that requires water every day or even frequent watering is growing in an artificial and/or hostile environment and would not have survived without significant modification of its micro-environment.

B. Potted bamboo should never be allowed to dry out completely.

C. Potted bamboo should never remain wet or stand in water.

D. Newly planted bamboo require frequent watering, but the soil should not remain wet.

2. Aborted or damped off shoots.

Aborted shoot


"Damped off" shoots


A. Bamboo in normal growing conditions will abort a percentage of its shoots. Healthy mature bamboo sends up lots more shoots than it needs and will begin to mature a certain number of these. If some of those shoots are damaged some of those shoots (just sitting there waiting to grow or abort) will become active and take the place of the lost shoot/shoots. I see this every year under all sorts of circumstances. Deer biting the meristem from the culm is my #1 reason for shoot loss.

B. The replacement of damaged shoots is (in my opinion) by slowly growing/inactive shoots is likely in part due to the Apical Meristem Dominance exerting inhibition on some of the shoots near them which when removed (by deer) causes the loss of inhibition to the surrounding shoots.

C. Extra/surplus (just sitting there) shoots helps to ensure the survival of the plant by having shoots ready to grow if needed but not taxing the plant with excessive unneeded growth.

D. Bamboo sends up extra shoots because everything likes to eat them including me, and those plants that did not were selected out of the gene pool. Extra shoots, when the necessary eating and maturing has been done, abort.

E. 100 year floods will cause shoots to damp off. A "damped off" shoot, and an aborted shoot look different to me. A damped off shoot was growing, but the growing tip dies for some reason, and the culm will blacken and rot. An aborted shoot looks fine but just does not grow and dries up inside and leaves just a shell.

a. I tend to think that aborted shoots by my definition contribute much of their energy back to the rhizome system. Just give one a squeeze, there's nothing in them!

b. "damped off" shoots cost the plant energy.


Bamboo is a balancing act, and will do what is needed to maintain that balance.
I'll try to post some aborted vs damped off (IMO) shoots this PM.

Well, I guess I got that off my chest!

Best regards to all,

David

[Steve in France]

David that seems all seems to match my experience perfectly. I have an example of the shoots aborting and growing to repace damage at the moment . I had a large tree removed the other day and nine large shoots on my Parvifolia got broken off half way up. There are one or two smaller shoots that are now growing in the same area as the damage.
In the areas where there was no damage the smaller shoots have aborted and are as you say empty. I check shoots by putting a little pressure on they at the side , if they are not firm and move then on the whole they are about to abort or have aborted. I've had many more shoots abort here in Manyland than I ever had in France , but I've also never had the massive growth rates in France that I see here. If I was to honest I'd say I'm getting 3 or 4 seasons worth of growth here compared to the same Bamboo in France. My Bamboo in France is just North of Paris , we have a good long growing season and pretty good weather but it does not compare to the long long season here.

I've noticed that shoots on the same run of rhizome respond to what happens along that run, ie: break a shoot on that run and get a replacement on that run, not the rhizome next to it. It seems the energy/hormone transferr is very local to the rhizome. Not important but I find it interesting .

[stevelau1911]

I've also never had the massive growth rates in France that I see here.

I think the biggest contributor here would be your nice warm summers and longer growing season. Winter damage shouldn't even be much of a factor since bamboos as hardy as parvifolia don't even take much leaf burn up here, but didn't upsize nearly as much as yours did.

Last summer through July and August, it was around 6F below average here with only a couple days past 80F, never a need for AC so there was never a chance for that much energy to get stored up however it rained alot allowing for rhizomes to roam pretty far. I hope this summer is hot and dry and so far this year already seems to be warmer than last year.

I think the ideal bamboo climate would be summer temperatures with lows in the lower 70s and highs in the low 90s with a rain storm every once in a while.

As far as rhizomes I also notice that the same run of rhizome generally produces shoots similar in size so I guess rhizomes with more starch produce bigger shoots.

[ShmuBamboo]

That must be a very young planting of Atrovaginata, it looks small and congested, especially for zone 8, though the new canes look to be sizing up some.

I do not know about young or sizing up. Sized up would be more like it. That is the edge of a much larger and spread out grove. Those are also 2+" inch culms in the center there? No reference, and I toned the photo down to fit here, because I took that particular photo in high def for a completely different reason. That was at the PNW Bamboo society overnight last year. I took several hundred photos of his stands there for my book while it was still foggy. Once the sun came out I put my camera away and yakked with the other boophiles.

McKenzie Valley Bamboo has one of the most impressive Phyllostachys (and other genus) display gardens that I have seen, actually. Mostly adult, mature stands, and some unusual types of Moso, and the largest Chinese Walking Stick stand I have seen (30 feet across?). I measured one rhizome he had running that was over 50 feet long from an aureosulcata. I would recommend anyone going through the Eugene, Oregon area to stop by and look at McKenzie Valley Bamboo. I am not sure what zone John is in. They are actually warmer than I am down there.

[ShmuBamboo]

This thread is like the blind men trying to explain an elephant. Actually this forum is a lot like that as well. Watering requirements for bamboo are completely different here in the PNW/west slopes of the Cascades than those in the midwest and the south US. Also there are hundreds, if not thousands of microclimates here, and there are many rainforests in the Coast Range that get over 100 inches of rain a year. When I lived there I measured rain in feet, not inches, and it dumped buckets. 6-12 feet a year. Also there are hundreds of soil types here from solid clay to loose loam to silty sand. On the 100 acre parcel I lived on in the Coast Range we had a soil map drawn up, and there were 15 distinct types of soil there on only 100 acres!

Also bamboo shoots do not contribute starches back to the mother plant when they abort. The mother plant moves stored starches to the pith of the shoot, but there are no other stored starch reserves to raid in a new or even a young hardened off shoot. They are all used up in culm production during shooting. Please refer to the book, The Anatomy of Bamboo Culms by Walter Liese. He goes into great detail with microscopic images of starches and the process of shooting, and they did detailed analysis of stored starched before and after baboo shooting.

[Matt in TN]

before and after baboo shooting.

Now we're on to a whole 'nother subject!

[firemountain]

While I consider myself a novice, I have to say that I have kept both my clumping and running well watered during the shooting season, and have had great success.

One of the best things to do is observe your bamboo....I check mine daily. I know when/if my boos are stessed and in need of water. Also, windy days will dry your boos out quicker, so I pay attention to that as well. We had a 3 day warm spell here, so I watered and fed on the 3rd day, and the following day I noticed that branches are starting to leaf out. It'a amazing how quickly they can react!!

I do let my boos dry out a bit in terms of a regular watering schedule, but in between I will mist all of the leaves for respiration every other day, and in the hotter months daily. I am actually looking into building a mister system for my grove area that run along my fence line.

[Steve in France]

Hey shmo, your an amazing guy , in one week you manage to run down Brads fine collection of new Bamboo for the US , shmo quote " but they seem to all be AGP; another green Phyllostachys". Then dismiss David Arnolds great advise gathered over many years of Bamboo growing . Then you move on to insulting the whole forum, Shmo quote "This thread is like the blind men trying to explain an elephant. Actually this forum is a lot like that as well ". I guess the only guy who can see in the land of the blind is you.
Some of the best Bamboo growers in the World hang out here and they should only listen to you and your experiences. If you treat your Bamboo with the same contempt as you treat people here they must look like Hell.
Then again everything on your list is in pots, so perhaps you should stick to pot growing. advise.
Some of the guys I respect and listen as growers are here. Some I talk to direct like Jos VDP , some I get second hand from friends like Markj he gets his advise direct from Mike Bell. Earn respect and don't run down people who have earned it or advise the people who are here looking to become better growers that your the only person they should listen too.
Later
Steve

[Mike McG]

There are lots of interesting and diverse comments with respect to watering during the spring shooting season on this thread.

We usually have rains during the winter here so the ground still has some moisture during the spring shooting season. I do not water because I do not believe it is necessary. I get very little aborting of new shoots. It may be that water becomes the limitation rather than starch.

For background, our annual rainfall is typically less than 40 inches per year with some long hot dry spells during the summer. We are located in what is called the "Blackland Prairies" in TX. Where we live is not true prairie and the pastures would probably eventually revert to oak woodlands. However, we are close to being prairie. Any pecan or oak seedlings that sprout in the grass in the spring are dead by mid-summer, when it dries the clay in the pastures has cracks 1 inch wide and more than 3 feet deep, and some years even the small prickly pear cactus shrivel up.

I try not to water the established bamboo in the ground during summer so that the plant is encouraged to put down deeper roots. Sometimes the leaves are in bad shape and the bamboo will defoliate, but then send out new leaves when it rains. Sometimes the tips of the older culms will die. I expect that if I water my bamboo to increase new shoots during the spring, I will probably need to need to water, say at least once a week but maybe more during the summer to keep them alive. I have seen heavy shooting on Ph area groves closer to Houston during a wet spring that died during the summer and never re-leaf in the fall.

As I indicated above, in most cases I do not think it is necessary to water in the spring; and that if you do water and are able to maximize new shoots; you may have to continue to water them perhaps even more heavily during the summer.

One last comment, a number of years ago I dug a bamboo at the Rev. Yates' place near Houston before shooting season. The bamboo I chose was near a small lake and the water table was only about an inch below the surface. I would guess the water table had been at that level most of the winter. Although it looked like Ph. n. 'Henon', I had understood that 'Henon' did not like wet feet and so convinced myself it might be Ph atrovaginata which I did not have. I put it in a pot until it shot and saw that it was in fact 'Henon' and so planted it with my other two established 'Henon' plants. The area where I had dug the plant probably dries out somewhat during the summer but being so close to the lake it probably always has a somewhat high water table and the bamboo was growing fine although nowhere near as large as 'Henon' is supposed to get.

Mike near Brenham TX

[needmore]

For the sake of clarity, in my initial post about watering and shoot rot I was speaking mainly to Steve's intention to heavily water a well mulched very young, very small bamboo. I remain convinced that this is a recipe for rotting shoots. I do worry about older groves when we are having weather like this - now 16 days of rain out of 19 - in well mulched groves of clay soil, I am also concerned with rot.

[tomgun]

The only species that aborts on me here in California is Sweet Shoot. It's not a problem because there are plenty of shoots that don't.

Out here in our dry climate I don't think it is possible to overwater before the water bill itself made you stop.

I notice there are a lot of differences 'tween this coast and the rest of the country as to results and what works.