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 Post subject: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:36 am
Posts: 803
Location: zone 3a-4b
I dont know why Ive neglected to make one of these yet, but here it goes.

Fargesia nitida - Any form, as many as possible
Fargesia Murielae - Any form
Phyllostachys areosulcata
Phyllostachys areosulcata "spectabolis"
Phyllostachys bisetti
Phyllostachys Parvofilia
Phyllostachys Nuda
Pleioblastus - any kind

Basically anything that is thought to be very hardy. Ill protect them all, no matter how hardy they supposedly are. ANy more suggestions are appreciated

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Location: upstate NY zone 6B Location Details
I'm surprised you didn't list virella since that's probably the hardiest phyllostachys out of all of them, but that might not matter if they don't have any chance of surviving without protection if all of your winters get that cold. I think absolute culm strength, and flexibility might be the most desirable characteristics since that would allow the culms to bend to the ground.

So far, the most bendable bamboos I can think of are rubromarginata, propinqua beijing and perhaps nuda.


One thing I'm actually interested in finding out is if a column tarp with christmas lights on the inside would raise the temperature enough to protect a hardy bamboo that is too big to tarp to the ground. I think that might be the only way to get a bamboo to 20-30ft in your climate. a 100 watt space heater with a sensor to monitor the temperature inside might be better than lights. I believe that column tarps by themselves raise the temperature inside around 2-3C, and negate the wind chill.

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:14 pm 
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stevelau1911 wrote:
I'm surprised you didn't list virella since that's probably the hardiest phyllostachys out of all of them, but that might not matter if they don't have any chance of surviving without protection if all of your winters get that cold. I think absolute culm strength, and flexibility might be the most desirable characteristics since that would allow the culms to bend to the ground.

So far, the most bendable bamboos I can think of are rubromarginata, propinqua beijing and perhaps nuda.


One thing I'm actually interested in finding out is if a column tarp with christmas lights on the inside would raise the temperature enough to protect a hardy bamboo that is too big to tarp to the ground. I think that might be the only way to get a bamboo to 20-30ft in your climate. a 100 watt space heater with a sensor to monitor the temperature inside might be better than lights. I believe that column tarps by themselves raise the temperature inside around 2-3C, and negate the wind chill.



Steve I would have to say that those are 3 of the least bendable bamboo here once they attain some diameter so I wonder if we have different species under the same name? Beijing in particular I think of as the most rigid bamboo I have, rubro is pretty much the same. Maybe if they are small diameter then it does not matter.

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Location: zone 3a-4b
Steve - Ive never heard of P virella. The little ive found says its similar to "rubro", and no real indication of hardiness.

I can see what youre saying about ease of bending. Even my Rufa is getting a bit hard to bend, and I can just imagine my alata when it gets bigger. I still have to think in terms of hardiness. I leave them exposed untill its about -10 C, then I cover them. Even under leaves and snow, the temps in the protection should still get about -10 to -15C.

Ive been thinking of grabbing a nuda for a while now. They grow slow, so that may be a bonus for me.

As far as "column tarping". I know people who use this method for palm trees, the most notable being in Iowa. He uses C9 bulbs and a thermocumbe. Im sure if he can get away with Washingtonia, Sabal, Rhapsidilophylum (sp, the needle palm), and various trachycarpus to survive, im sure even a simple version of this protection may work.

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Location: upstate NY zone 6B Location Details
I think we probably have the same species, but none of mine have surpassed the 1 inch mark yet, and they appear to be easy to bend to the ground.

Nuda has been surprisingly cold sensitive in my experience due to its delicate leaves, but if you protect it well, that might not matter. Another thing to consider is the size potential in cooler climates. A lot of species simply won't get big because soil temperatures never get warm enough, and seasons are too short for upsize. Your summers may be similar to that in the UK, so the species that can get big there may be the same ones that get big in your climate.

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:33 pm 
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Location: zone 3a-4b
I learned about the possible lack of size a while ago. I will say that it is a misconception that I have similar summers to the UK, or even the pacific north west.

I have way higher rainfall totals. As well, dispite being beside the lake (which does cool us of a little bit), im still concidered a continental climate, which is defined by warm summers. Recently these have been warmer then "average" as well, and has recently been noticed that winter is on average a month shorter here now, then it was 30 years ago.

Technically speaking, my summers are more similar to yours steve, albeit not quite as long or quite as warm (but not by too much relatively speaking)

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:41 pm 
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Posts: 359
Location: Midwest, USDA Z5 / AHS Heat Z5
canadianplant wrote:
Ive never heard of P virella. The little ive found says its similar to "rubro", and no real indication of hardiness.
[...]
Ive been thinking of grabbing a nuda for a while now. They grow slow, so that may be a bonus for me.


Nuda? That's strange.

The Ph. nuda 'localis' here seems to spread quite readily. Unfortunately it's not the most hardy bamboo here, losing its entire upper layer of leaves after an unusually mild winter. In comparison, Ph. virella also spreads readily but during the same winter here it kept green leaves on all branches. Both plants were exposed to the winds and temperatures down to -16° C.


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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Location: zone 3a-4b
Its possible im thinking of something else, but im pretty sure its nuda I have in mind. IF what you say is true (not saying it isnt), then ill have to keep that in mind...

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Location: upstate NY zone 6B Location Details
JD, How did all of your other bamboos fare at -16C?

It just doesn't sound like a temperature that I would expect much if any leaf burn on a typical cold hardy phyllostachys that is well established, but Nuda could be an exception since its leaves seem to be vulnerable to the wind and other elements. I believe that most of the top rated phyllostachys shouldn't start taking any serious leaf damage until it drops to around -18C unless wind chill is a big factor. Around here, it seems like sub zero temperatures correlate with snow cover, clear skies, and little or no wind.


Prominens also appears to have good size potential in cooler climates with hardiness rated at -18 to -24C. I believe that means that -18C is the temperature where leaf burn is supposed to start while -24C is where it either completely leaf burns, but the hardiness in Germany may not necessarily be the same in my climate. http://www.bambus-lexikon.de/phyllostac ... nghai.html

For example, a tiny 1/4 inch whip culm is capable of supporting up to five 5/8 inch culms the following year as shown here. Not a lot of species will nearly triple in culm diameter, and make a good number of strong culms in 1 season.
Image


In any case, I think it is a lot better to do as much research as possible, and find the species that can excel in your climate, taking in consideration that you may have to continually protect the grove every single year in order to achieve sizes that are worth showing off. I think zone 5a may be the coolest climate that bamboos can survive the winters to size up without human intervention.

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Location: HALIFAX, NOVA SCOTIA
Bamboo Society Membership: EBS - Germany
stevelau1911 wrote:
I think zone 5a may be the coolest climate that bamboos can survive the winters to size up without human intervention.


Steve - I assume you mean all bamboos and not just Phyllostachys. Also that rating for prominens in Germany for us might mean -18c for leaf damage and -24c for rhizome death. Their cold snaps are so very brief their ratings have little meaning over here, I'd bet it would burn here well above -18c.

Protection may be possible in the first couple of years but I haven't the time or energy to protect big groves in any way aside from some autumn top-dressing. A friend's Aureocaulis might bend down to 5.5ft high but that's about it after that it would break.

I still puzzle why in the UK Phyllos gain alititude but do not run, they sure run here. Could it be the wet winters or early onset of cold soill temps cause various fungi to rot the rhizome ends?

johnw - +11c

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Location: upstate NY zone 6B Location Details
I've never seen anything as low as -24C so I can't tell what that means for most phyllostachys, but I believe that the hardiest species should still manage to at least hold some buds at that temperature, especially if it is a mature grove. I've also read that cooler summers may result in less hardiness. Most of Germany happens to have cool summers while most of Germany is either zone 6 or 7 depending on the location.
Image

Once bamboos get past the 1 inch mark, I think it would be better to tie the culms together as opposed to tying them down with a tent stake, and throwing a tarp over them.


I think UK bamboos don't run because the soil temperatures never get warm enough for the rhizomes to go very far. In cooler parts of the UK, cool soil temperatures probably cause the shooting season to be later in the season, and the short season along with cool summers hardly give the bamboo enough time to fill up its starches in the culms. It seems like a bamboo needs to fill up its starches in the culms before working on the rhizomes. That seems to be the case with some of my bamboos that seem to be running less each year, the bigger the culms get, and UK summers are about 2-4C cooler than my summers.

Do all bamboos clump in the UK?

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Location: zone 3a-4b
stevelau1911 wrote:
I've never seen anything as low as -24C so I can't tell what that means for most phyllostachys, but I believe that the hardiest species should still manage to at least hold some buds at that temperature, especially if it is a mature grove. I've also read that cooler summers may result in less hardiness. Most of Germany happens to have cool summers while most of Germany is either zone 6 or 7 depending on the location.



Sure, they may take a bit at -24C, but throw in that for a week, and windchills into the -30C, and the buds are dehydrated, and killed. I can tell you a second year planting cant take that temp without being top killed, even being buried in some leaves.

This year my P alata isnt protected yet, and it seems perfectly fine (besides the usual yellowing of some leaves). Its seen -13C, as a night low, and was exposed to colder windchill one night.

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Location: HALIFAX, NOVA SCOTIA
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"Do all bamboos clump in the UK?"

A good question for Markj. I simply have not seen enough bamboos in the UK to say. There are fantastic stands in Edinburgh for instance and on the even cooler but milder west coast of Scotland.

Let's hope we never see below -20c again, better -17c and it's been a long time since we went below that. Alata inland here froze down repeatedly when temps went under -19 to -20c in bygone days.

johnw

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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:17 pm 
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Location: Midwest, USDA Z5 / AHS Heat Z5
stevelau1911 wrote:
JD, How did all of your other bamboos fare at -16C?


40% fared as poorly and suffered similar damage as the nuda 'localis'.

stevelau1911 wrote:
It just doesn't sound like a temperature that I would expect much if any leaf burn [...] unless wind chill is a big factor. Around here, it seems like sub zero temperatures correlate with snow cover, clear skies, and little or no wind.


Winds frequent the plains here especially during the cool seasons. The bamboo endured steady winds of at least 15 mph (24 km/h) a couple days every week all that winter. Some days brought stronger winds than that, such as 30 mph (48 km/h) sustained winds with gusts over 45 mph (72 km/h) all day in early January.

Freezing winds clearly inflict leaf damage, as bamboo culms on the side leeward to the prevailing winds show less leaf damage.
Bamboo with thick dense growth seems to have an advantage by reducing the winds.

canadianplant wrote:
Sure, they may take a bit at -24C, but throw in that for a week, and windchills into the -30C, and the buds are dehydrated, and killed. I can tell you a second year planting cant take that temp without being top killed, even being buried in some leaves.


With a winter down to -25° C (-13° F) here all exposed bamboos typically suffer top kill. With that low temperature here, buds persist on a Phyllostachys parvifolia under a layer of snow and green leaves survive under a much deeper layer of snow. A blizzard here a couple years ago with snow drifts 1 to 2 meters high demonstrated the effectiveness of a deep insulating layer. :D

The angled culms of young parvifolia plants have a particular advantage in hiding under deep snow. For example, a culm at a 45° angle can shelter over 40% more leaves under the snow than a straight culm. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: The Wanted List
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:52 pm 
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Location: zone 3a-4b
I dont get quite that windy, but yeah, winter is windy here for a decent portion of it. I think the windchills are what kills them off in my area.

God, that reminds me..... I have to go cover the phyllo....

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