Bamboo flowering times?

[canadianplant]

tom - thats a really good point. The worse part is, most of the mutations we treasure, and love, are genetic mistakes and have almost no chance of surviving in the wild. Sure if the mutation is good for survival it will mor then likley survive, but most mutations, or change geneticly ( albino, variegated, differt leaf or growth patters) are ususaly the death of that plant in the wild becasue it is inforior. So in a sence, lots of the plants we are growing, are inharently geneticly poor.

alan - too bad about the seed luck. Sounds like my luck with palm and banana seeds. Im not sure how long you had them, bt ive read that they loose viabilty for the most part in a month or so, and it goes downhill from there. The only reall success is from freshly obtained seed. Have you seen this in your experience?

[kudzu9]

Alan-
I'm less enthusiastic about growing from seed, too, because it takes so long to get a decent size plant, but I still do it because I just like to see what comes up...and maybe some day I'll have a new cultivar named after me! Do the two Tsuboi you grew from seed have any of the typical leaf striations?

[Alan_L]

No, just green on the exact same shade of green.

[tomgun]

No, my Tsuboi quit flowering and is just busy being real pretty right now.

However, tomorrow I'm going to war with a gopher. Just now I found two dead culms that pulled right out. That gopher is as good as dead. Gas bombs for breakfast first thing tomorrow.

[kudzu9]

tomgun-
I'll be interested in what ultimately happens with the Tsuboi...yours and mine. In my experience with flowering bamboo, they may hold on for a couple of years, but most of them ultimately give up the ghost after putting their energy into flowering.

[va_highlander]

Highlander - Thanks fer your input. I would never disagree with darwin, especialy natural selection. The only problem that I have, is that were sticking to science ( in that regard), which is hundreds of years old. Have there really been any real revisions of his theory that are accepted widley yet ( sure theres some). Just becasue it isnt a widley accepted veiw doesnt mean its wrong, or just becasue someone isnt a biologist ( or slept with one ) doesnt mean you have less kowledge.

Of course it does. A biologist knows one hell of a lot more about biology than the average man in the street. It's silly or disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

The plants adapt to their envoriment, as soon as we plant it.

That's not how we're using the word "adapt" in this context or else that statement is false, as noted previously.

Now, Im sorry if I was vague in typing, I didnt mean all offspring and seeds. OF course there would be variation. But look at Trachy palms. Do you think 30 years ago, that there would be soem growing in Ukraine, colder parts of canada ( someone made one survive edmonton temps, unprotected) or even bulgaria? Because the palms have been in an area that is "marginal" or cooler in some ways, it is inevitable for some palms to be quoted as "hardier".

Yet the palms aren't actually changing. Logically, anecdotal evidence that one specimen survived in Edmonton means only that that particular specimen was hardier than previously believed when grown in that particular location. This does not support your claim.

Now my logic for the bamboo seed, is this: Almost all other flowering plants, flower once a year, or all year, or every few years. I cant think of many other plants that have 20 - 100 + year flowering intervals. Becasue most plants set seed once a year, how can the plant produce seed that is truely more robust and hardy? I think they can, but only a small fraction of the seeds, becasue they only adapted to that one year.

Your problem is two-fold: There is no known mechanism by which a plant may alter the genetic material contained in its seeds and there is no evidence that any plant actually does so.

Phenotype, the form of a plant and its characteristics, is determined by genotype, the encoded instructions the plant received from its parent or parents. So far as we know, genotype changes ONLY through recombination and damage.

In terms of Bamboo, they take 20, 50, 100 + years to flower. Logicly, doesnt this make you thin that the seeds would have a way better chance of having seeds, or a higher number of seeds that are adapted to their enviroment? Especialy if the plant was in its location almsot all its life? Basicly what im saying is, the plant would put all its energy into ONE batch of seeds.

Well, if my butt were a pair of wheels, then I wouldn't have to put so much energy into buying and maintaining automobiles.

What might be useful for the bamboo is neither here nor there. The question is whether or not bamboo can alter the genetic material it passes on through its seeds. The answer is, no, there is no evidence for it.

[ghmerrill]

Bill, you need need to offer free coffee every time a user logs in to booweb.......

two cranky posts on two different threads, from different users- its almost an epidemic

[kudzu9]

I'll provide the sugar cubes...

[canadianplant]

"A biologist knows one hell of a lot more about biology than the average man in the street. It's silly or disingenuous to suggest otherwise."

I would never disagree with that. And that isnt exactly what I said. There will always be people smarter then you and I, and they dont have to have a PHD to say that. To say that its " silly or disingenuous" is degrating to people IMO. And personaly, I think its "silly and disingenuous to suggest that "average" people cant or some arent as smart or smarter, especialy in this feild, then the scholars.


"That's not how we're using the word "adapt" in this context or else that statement is false, as noted previously."

Adapting, is what flaura and fauna do to their enviroment. IF there was no adaptation through months, years, and thousands of years, evolution would not exsist. Darwin states that "everything is in a constant struggle for exsistance". Evolutions doesnt take a break, its happening right now, every second.


"Yet the palms aren't actually changing. Logically, anecdotal evidence that one specimen survived in Edmonton means only that that particular specimen was hardier than previously believed when grown in that particular location. This does not support your claim."

If the palms hardiness changes ( note the word change), that is a change to the plant. IT deosnt have to be a physical change to the plant for it to be concidered a change. Also, I stated a few other situations. There are more facters to hardiness then jsut temperature. Most gardeners know this. I was giving an exampe of progression through adaptation to enviroment. It is a well known fact, that plants and animals offspring are literaly a " better version" ( for the msot part, there is retardation, wrong mutations etc.....). The offspring is better adapted to its enviroment. Its the basic theory of evolution, and to disagree with that notion, is to disagree with evolution ( which you are free to do, i cant tell you what to belive in).

"Your problem is two-fold: There is no known mechanism by which a plant may alter the genetic material contained in its seeds and there is no evidence that any plant actually does so.

Phenotype, the form of a plant and its characteristics, is determined by genotype, the encoded instructions the plant received from its parent or parents. So far as we know, genotype changes ONLY through recombination and damage."

How about a few hundred years of evolutionary biology? What you seem to be suggesting, is that all plant life were here fromt he get go, like creationism, or christianity ( i would never knock religions, and am not now, stating an obervation). SCience has proven with solid evidence that animals progess, at a natural rate. Look at fossils, which show physical evidence for how plants evolved. And dating methods ( which arent perfect, but is still better evidence then stories) state that these fossils were deposited, over hudreds of millions of years. Some animals are hudreds of feet from where currant ground levels are. Can you see a fish digging that far into the sand? Or a dinosaur skelleton, found where what would have been at his time under a few hundred feet of water, and then the sand and sediments.

Sure we dont really know how these changes physicaly happen, there are both esoteric and scientific explinations that in ways are syaing the same thing, or make sence.

So what causes the recombination of the dna???

"
"Well, if my butt were a pair of wheels, then I wouldn't have to put so much energy into buying and maintaining automobiles.

What might be useful for the bamboo is neither here nor there. The question is whether or not bamboo can alter the genetic material it passes on through its seeds. The answer is, no, there is no evidence for it. "

So plants cant show variability? What about variegation, or dwarf, or albino? They are the same plant, but something changed in the seed, whether like you say, damage or recombination. But this damage or recombination can lead to cariability in the gene pool. These can be passed through their seeds. Im not saying ALL the seedlings would be, say, albino, but the seedling would more then likley be so.

All life on earth, whether it syou , me or a bamboo plant.... our genetic offspring are different from us, other wise we would all look the same.

IF bamboo, and life in general cannot ahev its offspring geneticly varied did they always exist that way? or always exist?

[cuttlefish]

The offspring is better adapted to its enviroment. Its the basic theory of evolution, and to disagree with that notion, is to disagree with evolution

Ummm... no, no it's not. Have you actually read The Origin of Species? If you have, I'm not convinced that you understood it. You can't talk about evolution in a single generation, as though the organism willed itself better. Evolution takes place on a geological timescale.

For example: a problem that we have today is drug-resistant tuberculosis. TB is a nasty disease. Back in the day, you could just take a couse of penicillin, and be cured. How did this bacteria become immune to penicillin? It wasn't because the original TB noticed a change in the environment, and "changed". It was because there was genetic diversity all along because of mutations (as mentioned by va_highlander) because everytime DNA is copied there is a decent chance of making a mistake. Usually this is nothing. But sometimes, it turns out to be really important. So maybe in the beginning there was only one little bacterium that was able to deal with penicillin, but it's the one that survived and reproduced, and over the years has changed and changed again to be resistant to all kinds of drugs.

My point is that without the genetic side of the argument, your idea is not logical. I can tell from your posts that you're not a biologist, but you don't have to get angry when people try to explain things to you. You have a passion for plants, and that's great, but it doesn't make your idea right.

Sure we dont really know how these changes physicaly happen, there are both esoteric and scientific explinations that in ways are syaing the same thing, or make sence.

So what causes the recombination of the dna???

Seriously, a high school biology text will eplain this.

Cuttlefish

[Mackel in DFW]

Someone planted a canadian in here!

Mackel

[canadianplant]

Can some one please tell me where I stated I was angry, or a biologist??? I never claim to know everything, and I accept things taht are said to me, I agreed with him and you all in many points. To be fair, i never resorted to calling some one a liar ( you said bluffing, a nice way of saying lying) or saying someones ideas and thoughts are wrong.

The only thing I had a problem against, was the fact that highlander stated that plants dont yearly adapt. I never said it was a large amount at all ( i belive i stated it be minute). There are 2 ways evolution happens, as far as I am aware of: slow and progressive, and the sudden and random.

The slow and progressive way obviously happens in a longer span of time most people dont comprehend. For it to be slow, it would have to happen every day to really make a difference. Thats my logic at least. It would have to happen iin little steps. To me to suggest this doesnt happen, like I said suggests that plants and life is all the same.

Cuttlefish - I understand what you are trying to say. But that is different from what I mean. With what your saying is that if i try enough coconut palms here, id eventualy find one that would survive. But in reality, no matter what I do, i probably wouldnt get one to grow here, because the enviroment is no where near what it needs.

What im talking about, is a plant trying to make its young survive ( which is what all of life does) and spread its genetic information. By doing so, it would have to find ways to adapt to new locations if needed, or if the plant jsut so happened to be in a place where it really isnt supposed to be. Why else would people order differnt types of Sabal Minor? Its the same plant, that is from differnt areas, and has differnt adaptations to better suit its enviroment. I dont think you need to be a biologist to atleast speculate, that the when the palm seeded, each years seeds were better adapted to its enviroment.

I understand that variability can happen at random, for no reason, and even for survival ( as with the TB). And I am aware, that this can lead to that plant surviving, spreading its seed, and surviving while its bretheren are all gone, due to it being better suited to its enviroment.

I never claimed to know everything, and i try to act liek i dont know anything. And to be fair too, just becasue you havnt read it, or heard of the information stated doesnt make it wrong, or even right . I read in more then one spot, that bamboo plants grown from seed, are better adapted to their enviroment, and if i remember correncly it was due to their long flowering periods.

I have not once called people down, or made remarks on how much you all know, or assumed how much you know. I appoligize if I came accross as angry, becasue i never was in this whole thread. I have a right to explain myself, just as much as you do. I dont appreciate being called down for things that i know to be true ( it doesnt mean they are, or what you say for that matter), and actualy expected more from people who show themselves off to be " knowledgeable" and " smart", and from this forum.

All I wanted to kow was some flowering times for some bamboo.....

Since we are now on the topic of evolution then, please answer me this:

So from what I get from you guys, plant do not adapt to their enviroment, due to their enviroment. ITs jsut a random luck, every time the plant evolves. The surrounding confitions dont put any pressure on the plant, to make itself adapt to its enviroment. IT is random luck, that the plant is adapted to the humidity, sunlight, ground compsition, bugs and animals in its habitat? ( I do understand that evolution happens randomly, I just cant see it not happening literaly due to its enviroment, slowly, each year getting a small fraction of a percentage better suitted to its enviroment)

[foxd]

I think the term people are looking for is Lysenkoism, which is basically a theory about species passing on acquired characteristics to the next generation. It was popular in Russia because it meshed well with socialist thought. (The communists felt that Darwinism was far too capitalistic.) The Russians used Lysenko's work in breeding the country's wheat crop. It did not end well.

If you think about it, bamboo has a way of speeding its evolution. If the environment causes the plant stress it can flower producing a new generation faster than its normal life cycle.

[cuttlefish]

Okay, I think the problem is with terms. If I were to move to the arctic, I would "adapt" to my surroundings using whatever I could, and as human, I like to think that I'd have enough smarts to survive. I would not evolve thicker skin over the years or anything like that though. It takes a new generation (sex and recombined DNA) to get change however small. Evolution is not happening every day (with the possible exception of the bacterial scale because they reproduce so fast). So a plant in your yard is adapting in the sense that it is able to tolerate your conditions, yes, but not genetically. There is only so much a plant can do before you kill it. And different plants have different tolerances based on what's in their genes. No, you could plant a trillion coco palms in Ontario, and I'd bet money you'd never find one that's cold hardy because that's a huge major hurdle to cross for a plant.
You're right when you say that evolution can happen slowly or in jumps, but it still always involves reproduction. Like a couple with lots of children, no 2 are the same. They all have the same DNA as their parents just shuffled into different orders every time, and you get a slightly different child. One MIGHT be better adapted to life where it lives, but not because of anything the parents did.

If you think about it, bamboo has a way of speeding its evolution. If the environment causes the plant stress it can flower producing a new generation faster than its normal life cycle.

Yeah, orchids can do that too : )

Cuttlefish

[tomgun]

To sum this all up:

If you stress about not knowing much about biology and then sleep with a biologist, the resulting children will very likely know more about biology than you and/or not stress over it. Of course there will be variations and differences but over time, as the children and the children's children go out and sleep with biologists

I forgot where I was going with that